Curse

Shriketalon · Oct 14, 2010, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Title Slave

Why is everyone assuming PvP'ers need 30/50 and use that as an argument? I couldn't care less about those PvE items. Of course it's super easy to get 30/50, thats not the point here...

Obviously I played PvP for fun and not for titles but it's just disheartening to see we get nothing special for it in return. I think PvP'ers get very very little attention/respect from ANET.

If that's the case, why is this whole thing framed as a wailing "Anet doesn't love us" post, when that entire premise could be condensed into a single point:

"I suggest Anet add a way to let Fame carry over, just like GWAMM".

Boom. Problem solved. Constructive, helpful, and to the point.

*lemming* · Oct 14, 2010, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette

I know your right with this point. But you missed my point Im afraid. What I was sayign is that Players got really bad memories of PvP from when it was popular and when districts were full of "glf xx must be r6+ show Rank" or ragequitters in RA if there was no Monk on the team. These Memories is what is stopping many players at even thinking of Zoning to a PvP outpost and even attempt to join a team nowadays.

I'm sure that every PvEer has had at least one bad pug experience when starting out. Why didn't that stop all of them from PvEing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Star_Jewel

Really? How does that work? I mean, I can see somebody rolling an elementalist, throwing on the short skirt and flirting a little to get a couple free ectos from a lonely teenager, but PvP is a different ballgame. It seems to me that people in PvP are generally snotty no matter what: Innie or outie, all that matters is the WIN.
Besides that, isn't it a forgone conclusion that at least 50% of the female characters in this game are probably played by dudes? So how is this favoritism manifesting? Is it just based on cute female characters? Or does it tend to happen in PvP guilds where people are more likely to get to know each other on a deeper level, perhaps with a little help from Ventrillo?

The first thing you need to know is that people in PvP who aren't terrible tend to be not snooty. Just like in Halo, the masses of morons skew the perception from the outside.

Now, any kind of organized PvP is going to feature quite a bit of time spent on Vent. Considering the primary demographic of PvPers (males aged 16-24), it shouldn't be a surprise that a female presence is preferable, even without any harassment going on.

IlikeGW · Oct 14, 2010, 08:44 PM // 20:44

They put the nail in the whole game's coffin by moving on to GW2, so you're kind of off base on the HoM. It's fairly irrelevant.

And if they want to fix PVP rewards sure won't do it. That's not the problem that makes it low interest, the problem is it was way too hardcore and full of bitchy little nerds with no life that threw everyone out and insisted only other fellow flavor-of-the-month builds play against each other. You got your wish.

Mireles · Oct 14, 2010, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

While it isn't all A.nets fault, they do take up a very large chunk of blame. Not all players who left, quit because they did everything they wanted to and decided to ride off into the sunset. A lot of players quit out of frustration due to A.Nets complete lack of understanding the game they created, and the horrible updates that resulted because of the fact. It is pretty frustrating to have the people in charge of the game show a complete lack of understanding time and time again, and when help and advice is offered, have your words fall on deaf ears.

rank discrimination isn't a problem. There is supposed to be rank discrimination. It is part of the competitive world. The best play with the best, middle tier play with the middle tier, and lower tier play with the lower tier. This is how every single form of competition works, not just guild wars. Really the only exception is when professional sports require players to attend at least a year of University rather then moving straight into the Pros even if they are ready Athletically.

You don't need rank to get rank. You need rank to play with people who have rank. People with no rank are supposed to play with other people with no rank. Then you get rank, get noticed and move on when someone thinks your abilities are up to par. Don't try to tell me it isn't possible because it is. It only takes 8 players to form a team and there are a lot more than 8 people constantly complaining about rank discrimination. Go play with them. If you refuse to, the problem isn't the PvPers with the rank, it is you for looking for a shortcut rather than taking the beaten path. Stop pointing fingers at others when the real problem is yourself. Only then will you learn to improve.

High party wait times however, is a valid problem. Which is caused by the lack of incoming players. There is way too much to write about why that occurs, but as I stated in my last point, I believe the main reason is the lack of the incentive to take the time to improve. A lot of people don't like PvP because that sort of competition doesn't interest them. But those people have always existed. It wasn't until a few years back that the people who actually do flock to that sort of competition deemed it not worth it anymore to attempt to beat the learning curve, and I believe the main culprit as to why is GW2. And if I happen to be correct in my assumption then there is absolutely nothing that can be done to change the lack of an influx of newer players.

Paragraph #1 is just matters of opinion... Most pvp and pve players don,t like updates because they changed the over powered meta of their favorite activity.

You contradict yourself in paragraphs 2 & 4. High party wait times are a direct result of having to wait around for the correct rank (rank discrimination). New players don't form groups because they don't know what they are doing.

Whats the point of going in not knowing what your doing vrs a high ranked team. Do you really expect new players to play against people that just want to win all day? There is no learning experiences if there is no way of gauging what exactly your doing wrong.

Your analogy about sports would be valid if there different leagues of skill
(ie.. new groups vrs new groups)... you don't see high school football players playing against professional leagues.. Which i think would save PVP... have different arenas for different tiers of rank.... once you get enough rank you advance to the next arena... newbs vrs newbs... big boys vrs big boys...

added suggestion thread...
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...57#post5269557

Shriketalon · Oct 14, 2010, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

I'm sure that every PvEer has had at least one bad pug experience when starting out. Why didn't that stop all of them from PvEing?

Because my heroes and henchmen don't complain when I sacrifice their lives so that I may obtain my objective.

Rambo' · Oct 14, 2010, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

Whats the point of going in not knowing what your doing vrs a high ranked team. Do you really expect new players to play against people that just want to win all day? There is no learning experiences if there is no way of gauging what exactly your doing wrong.

Your analogy about sports would be valid if there different leagues of skill
(ie.. new groups vrs new groups)... you don't see high school football players playing against professional leagues.. Which i think would save PVP... have different arenas for different tiers of rank.... once you get enough rank you advance to the next arena... newbs vrs newbs... big boys vrs big boys...

This makes complete sense to me, wouldn't necessarily have to have different arenas though, just some opponent selection logic.

Still Number One · Oct 14, 2010, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

Paragraph #1 is just matters of opinion... Most pvp and pve players don,t like updates because they changed the over powered meta of their favorite activity.

You contradict yourself in paragraphs 2 & 4. High party wait times are a direct result of having to wait around for the correct rank (rank discrimination). New players don't form groups because they don't know what they are doing.

Whats the point of going in not knowing what your doing vrs a high ranked team. Do you really expect new players to play against people that just want to win all day? There is no learning experiences if there is no way of gauging what exactly your doing wrong.

Your analogy about sports would be valid if there different leagues of skill
(ie.. new groups vrs new groups)... you don't see high school football players playing against professional leagues.. Which i think would save PVP... have different arenas for different tiers of rank.... once you get enough rank you advance to the next arena... newbs vrs newbs... big boys vrs big boys...

Paragraph 1 isn't a matter of opinion. It is fact. Many PvPers have been quoted over the years stating their reason for leaving was that they were fed up with how A.Net has managed PvP. Players who are still playing now scream about how A.Net has mismanaged PvP. Most if not all PvPers don't complain about updates happening, they complain about what the update implemented.

Paragraphs 2 &4 don't really contradict one another. They are two separate points. Rank discrimination isn't a valid reason for lack of players. Rank discrimination is supposed to exist. The problem is everyone's mindset that they shouldn't have to start from scratch. Yes they should. You should start from scratch. If you don't want to, then don't play.

New players not knowing what they are doing is a stupid excuse. There are forums with guides. There is PvXwiki for builds. There are forums for recruiting. Get a team, roll a build, and start playing. Ask the people who beat you for tips, and if they are nice enough they will give them to you. And most high end GvGers are nice enough to give players tips, or point them to a guide that will answer a lot of their questions.

I don't see how you can't learn from playing. I don't see how you can't learn from getting beat. I never started playing with top players. I played with 7 other guys who never GvG'd before. We got better by playing. We saw what worked well, and we saw what failed miserably. We learned what builds we could run well, and which builds we used like crap. We watched our matches, saw our positioning mistakes, helped each other learn what we did wrong, communicated with each other about how to fix it, and we got better. About a year later I was playing in a top 200 guild and won a bronze trim. YOU DO LEARN FROM LOSING. Playing the game makes you better. The only way it wouldn't is if you are too stupid to learn from your own mistakes. The resources are out there to help you beat the learning curve faster. USE THEM.

My analogy for sports kinda does work actually. This whole conversation isn't with 1 brand new team entering the PvP scene in mind. There are hundreds of players constantly complaining about rank discrimination. If they all made guilds, there would be close to a hundred new teams. GvG does have a system pitting like ranked guilds against each other. The problem today is there are like 10 guilds playing during American times. You aren't going to be matched against a similar rank if no similar rank is playing. You get matched with whoever is playing. If everyone complaining created their own guilds, 9 out of 10 times they would play each other. They would still play the occasional champ range guild every now and then, but for the most part you won't be.

Rather then sitting around and complaining no one is holding your hand, you should just shut up and play. You do get better through losing. Everyone who is in high end GvG now got better through losing. No one came in and was winning from the get go. We all suck when we start. If you are smart enough to actually figure out your mistakes, you won't suck forever.

Roen · Oct 14, 2010, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

I'm sure that every PvEer has had at least one bad pug experience when starting out. Why didn't that stop all of them from PvEing?

Because most of the PvE game is solo-able thanks to H/H. And thank God for that. I don't play the game to be screwed with by teenagers (or people behaving like them). Jerks are everywhere but more online than AFK, if you ask me. Something to do with the Greater Internet F*wad Theory.

Mireles · Oct 14, 2010, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

Paragraph 1 isn't a matter of opinion. It is fact. Many PvPers have been quoted over the years stating their reason for leaving was that they were fed up with how A.Net has managed PvP. Players who are still playing now scream about how A.Net has mismanaged PvP. Most if not all PvPers don't complain about updates happening, they complain about what the update implemented.

Paragraphs 2 &4 don't really contradict one another. They are two separate points. Rank discrimination isn't a valid reason for lack of players. Rank discrimination is supposed to exist. The problem is everyone's mindset that they shouldn't have to start from scratch. Yes they should. You should start from scratch. If you don't want to, then don't play.

New players not knowing what they are doing is a stupid excuse. There are forums with guides. There is PvXwiki for builds. There are forums for recruiting. Get a team, roll a build, and start playing. Ask the people who beat you for tips, and if they are nice enough they will give them to you. And most high en-d GvGers are nice enough to give players tips, or point them to a guide that will answer a lot of their questions.

I don't see how you can't learn from playing. I don't see how you can't learn from getting beat. I never started playing with top players. I played with 7 other guys who never GvG'd before. We got better by playing. We saw what worked well, and we saw what failed miserably. We learned what builds we could run well, and which builds we used like crap. We watched our matches, saw our positioning mistakes, helped each other learn what we did wrong, communicated with each other about how to fix it, and we got better. About a year later I'm playing in a top 200 guild and winning a trim. YOU DO LEARN FROM LOSING. Playing the game makes you better. The only way it wouldn't is if you are too stupid to learn from your own mistakes. The resources are out there to help you beat the learning curve faster. USE THEM.

My analogy for sports kinda does work actually. This whole conversation isn't with 1 brand new team entering the PvP scene in mind. There are hundreds of players constantly complaining about rank discrimination. If they all made guilds, there would be close to a hundred new teams. GvG does have a system pitting like ranked guilds against each other. The problem today is there are like 10 guilds playing during American times. You aren't going to be matched against a similar rank if no similar rank is playing. You get matched with whoever is playing. If everyone complaining created their own guilds, 9 out of 10 times they would play each other. They would still play the occasional champ range guild every now and then, but for the most part you won't be.

Rather then sitting around and complaining no one is holding your hand, you should just shut up and play. You do get better through losing. Everyone who is in high end GvG now got better through losing. No one came in and was winning from the get go. We all suck when we start. If you are smart enough to actually figure out your mistakes, you won't suck forever.

last time i checked facts were absolute... 100% of people would have to agree with everything you said for it to be fact.

Ie.

Such as the sky is blue.
People love breathing...
Fire Burns..

Still Number One · Oct 14, 2010, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

last time i checked facts were absolute... 100% of people would have to agree with everything you said for it to be fact.

Ie.

Such as the sky is blue.
People love breathing...
Fire Burns..

How is me stating that A.Nets failure at balancing has caused some people to quit the game not a fact? People have quit because of their management of PvP. That is a FACT.

Mireles · Oct 14, 2010, 09:34 PM // 21:34

your original statement contained "it is pretty frustrating to have the people in charge of the game show a complete lack of understanding time and time again" which is a matter of perception. and contains words like most and some. These are not factual statements... Stating stating that A.Nets failure is also a matter of perception.... If you want to say that people left because they were displeased with new updates... yes that would be a fact.

*lemming* · Oct 14, 2010, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roen

Because most of the PvE game is solo-able thanks to H/H. And thank God for that. I don't play the game to be screwed with by teenagers (or people behaving like them). Jerks are everywhere but more online than AFK, if you ask me. Something to do with the Greater Internet F*wad Theory.

There was a time when heroes didn't exist, you know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

your original statement contained "it is pretty frustrating to have the people in charge of the game show a complete lack of understanding time and time again" which is a matter of perception. and contains words like most and some. These are not factual statements... Stating stating that A.Nets failure is also a matter of perception.... If you want to say that people left because they were displeased with new updates... yes that would be a fact.

It's not a matter of perception or opinion that a lot of updates were detrimental to the state of the game.

Mireles · Oct 14, 2010, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

It's not a matter of perception or opinion that a lot of updates were detrimental to the state of the game.

yes, its a fact these updates were detrimental... but the success or failure of these updates is left to the players definition and benchmarks of success of failure is opinion.

Fact. (Noun)

something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.
2.
something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact.
3.
a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
4.
something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts given by the witness are highly questionable.
5.
Law . Often, facts. an actual or alleged event or circumstance, as distinguished from its legal effect or consequence.

Opinion–noun
1.
a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2.
a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
3.
the formal expression of a professional judgment: to ask for a second Medical opinion.
4.
Law . the formal statement by a judge or court of the reasoning and the principles of law used in reaching a decision of a case.
5.
a judgment or estimate of a person or thing with respect to character, merit, etc.: to forfeit someone's good opinion.
6.
a favorable estimate; esteem: I haven't much of an opinion of him.

*lemming* · Oct 14, 2010, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

yes, its a fact these updates were detrimental... but the success or failure of these updates is left to the players definition and benchmarks of success of failure is opinion.

It is a fact that you don't know what you're talking about. It is my opinion that you should stop posting about it.

Still Number One · Oct 14, 2010, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

yes, its a fact these updates were detrimental...

And that is the only point I was making in that paragraph. The sentence you are so bent out of shape over was my reaction to the fact that A.Net implemented so many detrimental updates. The point of that paragraph wasn't my reaction to the event. It was pointing out the event itself. The event occurring is a fact.

Mireles · Oct 14, 2010, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Right once faced with real definitions you have to personally attack me, Y'all obviously never been educated in former debate. check and mate. But since your a mod people probably won't even see this.

Roen · Oct 14, 2010, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

There was a time when heroes didn't exist, you know.

Yes, I know. Which is why I played through Prophecies with mostly just hench. My comment still stands. Most of Prophecies in NM is solo-able with just hench. And now most of PvE is solo-able with H/H.

Shriketalon · Oct 15, 2010, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

YOU DO LEARN FROM LOSING.

You learn a lot less by being steamrolled than you do from a near defeat.

The point about lack of tiered play is spot on. You don't learn to fence by going to find the best swordsman in the world, and having him skewer you a thousand times a day. You progress against people of your same level of skill under the watchful eye of an experienced instructor.

That attitude your present, the notion that anyone who isn't willing to constantly be steamrolled by champion level groups for months at a time to learn how to actually hold your own is a terrible person, is simply not new player friendly. Is it really any wonder that the average gamer, when told "come here and fail", is turned off by that notion? So if you're idea of getting into PvP to revitalize the game you want to have given recognized and catered to is "Come here so experienced teams can beat you down again and again and again, why are you complaining?", then sorry, no, I'm just not going to play. I've got better things to do, and if your favorite mode stagnates as a result of me and mine leaving, I have no reason to care.

dr love · Oct 15, 2010, 12:53 AM // 00:53

the rewards (hero title track, emote, unid gold from HoH chest) do not justify the pain (insults, losing, waiting time to form or find a match, realizing you're terrible, playing with preteens on vent) for the majority of players.

GvG has even less rewards.

that's why most people never improve at organized PvP. they want it easier and to give more.

snaek · Oct 15, 2010, 12:56 AM // 00:56

it was only a matter of time before people started shitting on gw2 pvp...

i'll have to agree with the naysayers that anet is showing obvious signs that gw2 pvp might be crap. however, i don't think it will be--anet won't let it be. anet royally effed up gw1 pvp and i'm sure they won't let that happen to gw2. because if they do, they'll lose a whole 4% of their playerbase--and we all know how much anet loves its playerbase.

for real though, gw2 pvp won't be bad--it just won't be great for the same reasons that gw1's pvp was during the height of it.

my prediction: gw1 tried to get pve'rs to pvp by crafting pve to "ready" them for pvp; gw2 will try to get pve'rs to pvp by introducing pve elements into pvp so that it will feel "familiar" and "accessible" (hopefully, this won't lead to dumbing down the gameplay or making it less competitive).